Log for 20190721 meeting.

License: CC-PDM-1.0 (raw IRC log, not copyrightable)
Signed-off-by: Ulrich Müller <ulm@gentoo.org>

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+<@ulm> time                                                             [21:00]
+<@ulm> !proj council
+<+willikins> (council@gentoo.org) dilfridge, gyakovlev, patrick, slyfox, ulm,
+             whissi, williamh
+* gyakovlev here
+* dilfridge here
+* Whissi here
+<@ulm> anyone else wants the chair? otherwise I'll take it
+<@slyfox> go ahead
+* xiaomiao here
+<@dilfridge> go ahead :)
+<@ulm> agenda:
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/6106d52ec7a6c75b068cd3c487c26baf
+* WilliamH here                                                         [21:01]
+<@ulm> 1. roll call
+* slyfox here
+* Whissi here
+* WilliamH here
+<@dilfridge> everyone's here!
+<@ulm> yep :)
+<@ulm> gyakovlev: xiaomiao: welcome :)
+<@ulm> 2. Constitute the new council                                    [21:02]
+<@ulm> time of meetings, evryone ok with 2nd Sunday of every month at 19:00
+       UTC?
+* Shentino pays attention
+* dilfridge is in favour of the bavarian constitution (lots of freibeer)
+<@WilliamH> fwm
+<@slyfox> 19:00 UTC ok for me
+<@dilfridge> ok for metoo                                               [21:03]
+<@Whissi> OK for me.
+<@ulm> I don't see any objections
+<@gyakovlev> works for me as well, a bit in the middle of the day but fine.
+<@xiaomiao> wfm
+<@ulm> any objections against continuing last council's workflow?
+<@WilliamH> none here                                                   [21:04]
+<@ulm> i.e., call for agenda items two weeks in advance, agenda 1 week in
+       advance
+<@dilfridge> it works
+<@dilfridge> so why change it
+<@ulm> major discussions on -project ML prior to the meeting
+<@slyfox> sounds good
+<@Whissi> Not in general but see my mail I wrote today, maybe something for
+          open floor.
+* WilliamH thinks major discussions applies to us as the council too. ;-)
+<@gyakovlev> Whissi sent out an email with some suggestions, consider it
+             later?
+<@dilfridge> link?                                                      [21:05]
+<@Whissi> council@ only
+<@dilfridge> ah
+<@ulm> Whissi: let's postpone to open floor                             [21:06]
+<@dilfridge> Whissi: reading your mail, that's how it's usually supposed to
+             be... so, wfm
+<@Whissi> ulm: OK, move one
+<@ulm> chairmen for this term
+<@ulm> any volunteers?                                                  [21:07]
+<@Whissi> Maybe you explain charmen first, we have new members ;)
+<@slyfox> i can take next two meetings
+<@WilliamH> I'll chair some meetings. I'm not really picky when other than I
+            don't want nov or dec.                                      [21:08]
+<@gyakovlev> I can chair at winter time or spring time, fall/autumn is pretty
+             busy and I'd like to learn a bit how you do it.
+<@ulm> Whissi: should be obvious?
+<@WilliamH> Normally what we do is each of us takes two meetings in a row but
+            we all don't have to
+<@ulm> August/September: slyfox
+<@slyfox> ACK
+* WilliamH Jan/Feb I guess                                              [21:09]
+<@ulm> k
+<@dilfridge> I can do something, but I'm not too eager volunteering... would
+             rather restart working on the summary document
+<@ulm> gyakovlev: March/April?
+<@gyakovlev> wfm
+<@dilfridge> can do Nov/Dec                                             [21:10]
+<@dilfridge> october is bad for me
+<@ulm> I'll do October then
+<@Whissi> I'll take May/Jun?                                            [21:11]
+<@ulm> xiaomiao hasn't got any
+<@dilfridge> there's always one lazy guy... was me last year :)         [21:12]
+<@ulm> are you fine with this?
+<@xiaomiao> yes
+<@ulm> I'll update the table later
+<@xiaomiao> my time planning is chaotic enough as it is :)
+<@ulm> 3. GLEP 81 approval
+<@ulm>
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/5d649766eebc4b8550555a66df8c700c
+<@ulm> mgorny: are you there?
+<@gyakovlev> he mentioned he may not make it.                           [21:13]
+<+mgorny> Kinda
+<+mgorny> I'm via phone
+<@ulm> mgorny: want to say anything before we vote on it?
+<@dilfridge> so, I like the whole thing a lot, just have one question / remark
+             (which I already asked mgorny on the channel)
+<@dilfridge> how can we make sure that "re-enabling a user or group" doesnt
+             open any security problems?                                [21:14]
+<@dilfridge> like, admin had it disabled by hand, then it gets enabled
+<@Whissi> Touching existing users is always a problem. Even disabling... you
+          can't know if someone else is using...                        [21:15]
+<@dilfridge> "Appropriately, the packages must be able to reenable users when
+             they are installed again."
+<@dilfridge> ^that's the glep sentence
+<+mgorny> We provide explicit override option via local overlay
+<@WilliamH> Is there a place a developer can look to see which uids/gids are
+            used in case their package requires a specific one?         [21:16]
+<@WilliamH> I don't know if that affects the glep or not, but it is a question
+            that has run through my mind on this subject.               [21:17]
+<+mgorny> We collect them on wiki now
+<+mgorny> And i still remember your request about different format      [21:18]
+<+mgorny> You can also grep ebuilds
+<@gyakovlev> WilliamH:
+             https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Quality_Assurance/UID_GID_Assignment
+                                                                        [21:19]
+<@gyakovlev> mgorny: what about installing users to alternative ROOT, for
+             example if crosscompiling, was it adressed? I haven't got a
+             chance to use reference implementation yet.                [21:20]
+<+mgorny> Works same as user eclass                                     [21:21]
+<@ulm> gyakovlev: not different from what ebuilds are doing now
+<+mgorny> Ie i dunno
+<@ulm> are we ready to vote?                                            [21:22]
+<@dilfridge> well, worst case things just dont improve, so...
+<@ulm> motion: accept GLEP 81                                           [21:23]
+* slyfox yes
+* gyakovlev yes
+* dilfridge yes
+* Whissi yes                                                            [21:24]
+* xiaomiao yes
+<@ulm> WilliamH: ?
+* WilliamH yes
+* ulm yes
+<@ulm> unanimous
+<@ulm> next                                                             [21:25]
+<@ulm> 4. Unrestrict gentoo-dev mailing list
+<@ulm>
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/3883fd8a106a0655f412e7c770dfce4e
+* WilliamH yes
+<@ulm> mgorny again :)
+<@ulm> WilliamH: we don't vote yet
+<@WilliamH> heh ;-)
+<@ulm> so the motion is to revert the previous council decision and open the
+       gentoo-dev mailing list again                                    [21:26]
+<@slyfox> \o/
+<@ulm> anyone wants to discuss?
+<@Whissi> Is there anything to discuss? I don't think so: Let's unrestrict
+          mailing list again. If there will be someone *spamming* we will take
+          action like one is spamming in IRC, bugzilla...  the decision from
+          the past was wrong from my POV so let's fix it.               [21:27]
+<@WilliamH> Whissi++
+<@ulm> yeah, we could give it a try, and revert againif it doesn't work
+<@WilliamH> ulm: we shouldn't revert again, this is a comrel/proctors issue.
+<@ulm> than means infra should save the whitelist, for the time being   [21:28]
+<@gyakovlev> haha, yeah, just don't delete whitelist repo right away
+<@ulm> WilliamH: if it doesn't work at all, then we have the option to
+       restrict again
+<@dilfridge> let's give it a try, we have the proctors now
+<@WilliamH> ulm: from my pov we should have never restricted to begin with.
+<@Whissi> ulm: GDPR... :D
+<@dilfridge> we know
+<@dilfridge> you told us                                                [21:29]
+<@ulm> WilliamH: we all know your opinion, I guess :)
+<@ulm> ok then
+<@slyfox> time to vote?
+<@ulm> motion: removing posting restrictions from gentoo-dev mailing list
+* slyfox yes
+* gyakovlev yes
+* Whissi yes
+* WilliamH yes
+* dilfridge yes
+<@ulm> xiaomiao: ?
+* xiaomiao yes                                                          [21:30]
+* ulm yes
+<@ulm> unanimous
+<@ulm> 5. Real name requirement
+<@dilfridge> sigh
+<@ulm>
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/85de6190bd27693bed07744e04855911
+<@ulm> discussion? anybody?                                             [21:31]
+<@WilliamH> I'm all for the real name requirement, it hasn't really affected
+            us that much.
+<@gyakovlev> WilliamH: it did affect proxy-main project
+<@ulm> yeah, but we have a procedure                                    [21:32]
+<@Whissi> +1. I don't see a reason to change. When we voted for this, we
+          wanted real names. I don't see that a majority is disagreeing and
+          changed mind.
+<@ulm> proxy maintainer can signoff
+<@xiaomiao> I don't see how we can verify names
+<+mgorny> it's internal proxy-maint decision not to accept fake names
+<@xiaomiao> so to me it looks like an empty gesture that creates lots of
+            friction
+<+mgorny> as it's been already established, individual developers can decide
+          differently but it's their choice                             [21:33]
+<@Whissi> xiaomiao: We don't really have to. If we will learn that contributor
+          makes fun of us we will probably stop working with him/her just
+          because the attitude of this person doesn't match what we expect.
+<@xiaomiao> I mean - I have no idea if the entity present here as Whissi is
+            using the name their passport(s) have or not, and I don't even
+            know how to verify that
+<@xiaomiao> so it's all just faith and assuming we can "common sense" our way
+            through it                                                  [21:34]
+<@WilliamH> xiaomiao: Sure, but you at least have a reasonable idea that he
+            his, whissi is more than likely Thomas.
+<@WilliamH> I can say that here because he is listed as such on our dev page.
+<@slyfox> who knows what is the subtlety in legal vs. preferred name :)
+<@ulm> ok, in order to keep this focussed, I suggest than someone come up with
+       a motion                                                         [21:35]
+<@ulm> otherwise, we move on
+<@dilfridge> motion: no changes
+<@xiaomiao> WilliamH: I don't even know if it's a single person driving the
+            entity
+* WilliamH yes
+* slyfox abstains
+* xiaomiao no                                                           [21:36]
+* dilfridge yes
+* Whissi yes
+* gyakovlev no                                                          [21:37]
+* ulm yes
+<@ulm> 4 yes 2 no 1 abstention
+<@xiaomiao> people have more faith than I do :)
+<@ulm> no changes to real name policy
+<@Whissi> gyakovlev / xiaomiao: Let me ask you a different way: Just the way
+          that we can never 100% be sure that an identity is real, is that
+          enough for you to stop requiring real names?
+<@Whissi> *fact                                                         [21:38]
+<@xiaomiao> Whissi: it's an unenforceable policy, so I don't see why it should
+            exist
+<@ulm> the same would be true for linux                                 [21:39]
+<@WilliamH> ulm++
+<@ulm> and all other projects that require signed-off-by
+<+mgorny> xiaomiao: we have a lot of those, and yet we don't disband gentoo
+          just yet
+<@xiaomiao> would anyone even notice a chinese person with the name "spicy
+            chicken soup" ?
+<@ulm> anyway, let's move on
+<@ulm> 6. Proctors policy
+<@ulm>
+       https://archives.gentoo.org/gentoo-project/message/854d484eca8664e7ee6678bf79d63976
+<@gyakovlev> Whissi: I personally don't care if it's real or not. If I see a
+             person submitting quality ebuild/code written by them which was
+             accepter to other projects under same pseudonym I'm ok
+             signing-off this as my name. my position is we still need to
+             require names for developers (committers) but authors in some
+             cases.
+<@Whissi> Thank you two for explanation.                                [21:40]
+<@dilfridge> somehow my joke about the spicy chicken soup took on a life of
+             its own...
+<@ulm> is anybody from proctors present?
+<@ulm> !proj proctors
+<+willikins> ulm: (proctors@gentoo.org) dolsen, leio, rich0, tamiko, zlogene
+<@slyfox> "Lead(s): none" :)                                            [21:41]
+<@dilfridge> well they dont
+<@WilliamH> If they aren't here, should we even vote on this?           [21:42]
+<@ulm> not even sure what the motion would be
+<@dilfridge> I'm not fully sure what the whole thing is about           [21:43]
+<@dilfridge> but I am *very* reluctant to immediately start dictating policy
+             to the proctors
+<@ulm> we had delegated authority to them in a CoC update
+<@Whissi> I agree with desultory that proctors project must change policy. See
+          my bug... I still cannot believe that there was _no_ team decision.
+          I.e. proctors is a group of people but two people are enough to
+          issue public statements. That's _WRONG_. That's a statement of a
+          single person acked by a second one. It isn't more.
+<+mgorny> i think he's just flaming for the sake of it
+<+mgorny> he kinda does that since i told that forum mods are isolating
+          themselving from distro life                                  [21:44]
+* WilliamH tends to agree with mgorny on this
+<@dilfridge> yeah
+<+mgorny> so he now tries to make us wish they did that again
+<@Whissi> No. He is not flaming.
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: I feel like any posts I've seen from him tend to be pretty
+            combative.                                                  [21:45]
+<@xiaomiao> what do you expect to happen ...                            [21:46]
+<veremitz> they're aggressive, but thats hardly unusual *cough* sorry ..
+<@Whissi> WilliamH: Interesting. I read most of them differently. Yes, they
+          are hard... but he is dealing with people using the same wording
+          style.
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: there's some pretty crazy stuff on the forums and from
+            what I've seen which is very little they just tend to let it go
+            rather than call people out.                                [21:47]
+<+leio> Lets try to adhere to the CoC, e.g., not accuse people of flaming for
+        the sake it
+<+mgorny> Whissi: could you elaborate on why you believe he's not flaming? in
+          particular, if *you* have any suggestion on what should happen?
+<+mgorny> Whissi: do you consider yourself to be a victim of bad proctor
+          action?                                                       [21:48]
+<+leio> Regarding team decisions vs 2 people, it's about reaction speed and
+        the whole current theory "small slap on the wrist quickly", which
+        can't be achieved with a big team decision and waiting for all votes
+        and whatnot
+<@ulm> I tend to agree
+<@slyfox> I read the question as "should proctors have a publushed policy"
+<@Whissi> mgorny: Not a bad one but proctors have lost all my credits and I
+          can't take the project serious anymore given that two people are
+          enough when you hear they didn't even discuss.                [21:49]
+* WilliamH tends to agree with ulm
+<@ulm> slyfox: if they have policies then they should publish them
+<@Whissi> The policy is published.                                      [21:50]
+<@slyfox> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Proctors this one?
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: if someone doesn't like a proctors action they go to
+            comrel.
+<+rich0> leio: intent is to be able to react to flame war threads while
+         they're still going, not two weeks later.  IMO that is the worse
+         approach - re-starting a debate after the original debate is long
+         over
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: and if that doesn't satisfy them they come to us.
+<@Whissi> WilliamH: No, my problem is that 2 people can speak for proctors
+          project. That's my problem. Like said, one person is proposing
+          something and a second will just ack. BOOM. Enough. That's wrong
+          from my POV. You should have at least a public vote.          [21:51]
+<@Whissi> (=require a majority)                                         [21:52]
+<+rich0> Whissi: all votes are public, and there is a required delay to
+         prevent action.  Also, all actions DO require a majority of those
+         voting
+<@ulm> Whissi: that would be slow decision making
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: that's why comrel is so slow to do anything and things
+            have gotten out of hand in our community.
+<@Whissi> ulm: No. I don't take that argument. If that's true, proctors
+          consists of the wrong people.
+<+rich0> In any case, do we really have too many proctors decisions in the
+         last year?
+<+mgorny> Whissi: so how does the alternative work: a person knows he's going
+          to be banned but the actual ban is getting delayed by waiting on
+          votes from remaining team members?                            [21:53]
+<@dilfridge> the "two people rule" was part of proctors setup from the very
+             start                                                      [21:54]
+<+rich0> mgorny: my issue with the delay is that it just leads to endless
+         flame progression.  People go back and forth on lists because they
+         feel like there is no alternative.  IMO proctors might as well exist
+         if decisions take more than 24h to be decided from the time an issue
+         comes up
+<@Whissi> Again, if it will take so much time for proctors, the members are
+          the problem. And this should get fixed.
+<@Whissi> Don't lower requirements just because you don't get enough people to
+          vote in time.
+<+rich0> I guess we could require a vote one way or another (abstentions being
+         allowed but not counted as no), within some period like 12h, and if
+         too many votes are late we boot proctors out, but I suspect we won't
+         have many proctors left after long.  I doubt any project in Gentoo
+         consistently has all its members take actions within 12-24h.
+                                                                        [21:55]
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: The same thing is true in QA I think. two people can ask
+            for a ban, which can be put in place immediately, but the rest of
+            the team or the lead can override within 72 hours.
+<@Whissi> It's like the police will require a judge. But no judge is
+          available. No problem... just ask another cop... if he/she acks, do
+          whatever you wanted to do which normally will require a judge... no.
+          That's wrong.                                                 [21:56]
+<+mgorny> WilliamH: nope
+<+rich0> Whissi: if a violation happens at 5PM EDT, half the proctors won't
+         even be awake for 12h.
+<+Amynka> WilliamH: qa requires whole team to vote usually
+<@dilfridge> Whissi: we designed proctors to be able to act fast this way.
+             your ideas go against the entire design.
+<@WilliamH> mgorny: Ok, I thought qa was set up that way.
+<+mgorny> Whissi: actually, a police can lock you up for short time before
+          getting evidence afaik
+<+rich0> WilliamH: we already have a policy that actions can be overturned
+         after the fact if a new majority emerges
+<@WilliamH> rich0: ah ok. in that case, what's the deal Whissi?         [21:57]
+<+rich0> as slyfox linked - the process is documented on the page
+<+mgorny> Whissi: what you saying sounds like you assume that you need at
+          least half of proctors to establish whether discpilinary action is
+          necessary
+<+rich0> it was intended to be as transparent as possible
+<+mgorny> does that imply that individual proctors are unprofessional but as a
+          group they suddenly become professional?
+<@Whissi> Gentoo will survive if a decision to ban someone will take up to 48
+          hours. Srly, about what we are talking here? It's not like there's
+          something ongoing requiring immediate action. And in case something
+          like this would really happen, like a dev will delete gentoo
+          repository... people will apply common sense and take action to stop
+          such a behavior IN TIME.                                      [21:58]
+<+rich0> fwiw, proctors has yet to take any disciplinary action against
+         anybody in the community aside from that spammer a while ago
+<+mgorny> i don't really see why do you believe that decision made by 4 people
+          is that different from decision made by 2 people
+<+mgorny> either the action was justified, in which case it doesn't require
+          everyone to sign off it
+<+rich0> The intent is to stop the 100 post reply-fests before they get to 100
+         posts.  :)  If you wait 48h, then you get a 100 post reply-fest.
+         Then you start a new 100 post reply-fest.                      [21:59]
+<@ulm> I don't see this discussion going anywhere, and by the workflow we have
+       just accepted, it should have taken place on the ML prior to the
+       meeting
+<@WilliamH> I'm not for dictating proctor policy, especially since the policy
+            is already published.
+<+mgorny> or it wasn't justified, in which case the people who decided it
+          shouldn't be proctors
+<@Whissi> ulm: ACK
+<@ulm> so unless anyone comes up with a concrete action item, I suggest that
+       we move on
+<@WilliamH> ulm++
+<@slyfox> let's move on
+<@WilliamH> let's move on
+<+mgorny> and ftr, we have 5 proctors, so we're talking 2 vs 3 people
+<@dilfridge> move on
+<+rich0> ulm++  btw, we're certainly open to feedback/discussion on the policy
+<@ulm> 7. Open bugs with council involvement
+<@ulm> bug 637328                                                       [22:00]
+<+willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/637328 "GLEP 14 needs to be
+             updated"; Documentation, GLEP Changes; IN_P; mgorny:security
+<@Whissi> No update.
+<@ulm> no news, I suppose?
+<@ulm> bug 642072
+<+willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/642072 "                                      [Tracker] Copyright policy";
+             Gentoo Council, unspecified; IN_P; mgorny:council
+<+mgorny> last i heard, security team wants to kill it
+<@ulm> that one is just a tracker
+<@ulm> bug 662982
+<+willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/662982 "                                      [TRACKER] New default
+             locations for the Gentoo repository, distfiles, and binary
+             packages"; Gentoo Linux, Current packages; CONF;
+             zmedico:dev-portage
+<@ulm> any news there? catalyst was a blocker IIRC?                     [22:01]
+<@Whissi> stage3 are using new /var/db/repos location already
+<veremitz> WIP from my observations
+<@Whissi> Just installed a new system this week
+<@ulm> ok, so some progress there
+<@ulm> bug 677824
+<+willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/677824 "Deferred decision: Forums
+             (specifically OTW)"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; IN_P;
+             k_f:council
+<@ulm> not sure, what is the status there?                              [22:02]
+<+mgorny> some bits of discussion were happening but nothing solid
+<+mgorny> i'd suggest closing it until somebody comes with a proper agenda
+          item                                                          [22:03]
+<@Whissi> Discussion happened... but because there is no clear motion
+          formulated (nothing actionable), I would move one.
+<@slyfox> yup
+<@ulm> RESO NEEDINFO?
+<@slyfox> sounds good
+<@Whissi> NEEDINFO or CANTFIX :)
+<@ulm> k
+<@ulm> finally, bug 687938                                              [22:04]
+<+willikins> ulm: https://bugs.gentoo.org/687938 "QA lead approval 2019: soap
+             edition"; Gentoo Council, unspecified; CONF; mgorny:council
+<@ulm> that misses one vote
+<@ulm> but was a vote for the previous council
+<@ulm> which is no longer in office, so I guess it can be closed
+<+mgorny> i think it's WilliamH
+<@dilfridge> let's consider it timed out and count the votes
+<@Whissi> It's too late. So you have to count the missed vote as absent
+<+mgorny> (who didn't vote)
+<@ulm> result is clear in any case, 6 yes votes                         [22:05]
+<@Whissi> yup
+<@ulm> moving on
+<@WilliamH> I was the one who missed this I guess, so I can vote, and would
+            vote yes.
+<@Whissi> You cannot vote anymore for past year. :)
+<@ulm> WilliamH: I think you can't, since it's a new council term now   [22:06]
+<@ulm> 8. Open floor
+<@WilliamH> ok
+<@dilfridge> we should calculate the new geometric center of the council!
+                                                                        [22:07]
+<@dilfridge> :)
+* Shentino raises his hand
+<@ulm> yes?
+<veremitz> geographic*
+<veremitz> ;p
+<Shentino> I heard that someone on the ml was repeatedly evading bans
+<@dilfridge> that too
+<@gyakovlev> dilfridge: professors should do that =)
+<veremitz> ^ :D
+<Shentino> I am curious if consequences for that should escalate beyond just
+           repeatedly getting re-banned                                 [22:08]
+<+mgorny> Shentino: isn't that trustee business?
+<Shentino> particularly if such escalations can avoid collateral damage
+           against innocent bystanders
+* dilfridge gets some Domina Trocken.
+<Shentino> mgorny: I don't know, but if the MLs are being hosted on infra
+           managed hardware I think it *should* be trustee business at the
+           very least
+<Shentino> perhaps the foundation can send a C&D notice to ban evaders on the
+           mls
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: Yeah, I think that would be a trustee issue (it is
+            possibly a legal issue).
+<Shentino> I agree                                                      [22:09]
+<veremitz> Shentino: perhaps you mean how does that affect white/black-listing
+           efforts as prescribed by the council ?
+<+mgorny> at least until we take down the foundation and switch to umbrella
+* mgorny hides
+<Shentino> but the coc and proctors comrel etc who issue the bans answer to
+           council
+<Shentino> mgorny: perhaps later but for now we work with what we have atm
+<@dilfridge> mgorny++
+<Shentino> my point is that people who defy bans need stronger handling than
+           comrel/proctors atm can provide
+<Shentino> at least in my opinion
+<veremitz> OT: but shifting the blame to another authority ain't gonna solve
+           anything </2cents>                                           [22:10]
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
+<Shentino> and whitelisting just causes collateral damage against innocent
+           bystanders
+<+Amynka> Shentino: why?
+<@WilliamH> Amynka: that's possibly a CFAA issue at that point.
+<+mgorny> oh *beep*, i forgot one thing
+<+mgorny> what should we do about people who were explicitly blacklisted (i.e.
+          removed from whitelist)?
+<@dilfridge> nothing for the moment?
+<+mgorny> should they get access back now, or should it be moved to comrel?
+<Shentino> mgorny: let me elaborate                                     [22:11]
+<veremitz> probably be moved to comrel ..
+<Shentino> I'm saying that evading a ban on the ml (or on the forums or irc
+           for that matter) should be treated as a separate offense of its own
+<@gyakovlev> veremitz: are you blacklisted? =D
+<@dilfridge> mgorny: let's just give access back now, and leave the followup
+             to comrel/proctors
+<Shentino> separate from whatever offense provoked the ban
+<+zlogene> mgorny: which ones?
+<+willikins> zlogene, you have notes!                                                   [Jul-21 19:21] <dilfridge> beamer 3.55
+             seems to have some problems, my presentations fail with it
+<veremitz> gyakovlev: no idea...
+<Shentino> and I propose that ban evasion get escalated to stronger measures
+           that trustees could probably handle
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: I don't think anyone disagrees with that.
+<+zlogene> dilfridge: oh my                                             [22:12]
+<veremitz> Shentino: trustees can't be trusted ...
+<veremitz> *cough*
+<veremitz> I should go see a doctor :(
+<+Amynka> veremitz: i am not sure if they can help you *cough*
+<Shentino> william: so what is necessary to actually implement such responses
+           to ban evasion?
+<veremitz> Amynka: maybe you can ;P
+<Shentino> do we need to talk to trustees abou tit?
+<@Whissi> Can we move on are we still discussing the ml spammer?
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: I would say go to the trustees.                   [22:13]
+<@dilfridge> no family feuds during council session!
+<Shentino> william: will do
+<Shentino> I'll mention that I have council blessing to approach them about it
+<Shentino> NOW we can move on i think
+<@dilfridge> you have what?
+<+Amynka> blessing
+<@dilfridge> Amynka: bless you
+<veremitz> dilfridge: its a catholic thing :)
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: what you have is one member of council suggesting it.
+            :-)                                                         [22:14]
+<Shentino> that's more than zero
+<@WilliamH> Shentino: but yeah let's move on.
+<@dilfridge> Shentino: we can think and talk for ourselves, thankyouverymuch
+<+Amynka> dilfridge: bless you too
+<@Whissi> I wouldn't say that council voted on this. I mean, this isn't our
+          business...
+<Shentino> sorry dil, no harm meant
+<Shentino> I'm just tired of ban evasion
+<@ulm> let's move on
+<Shentino> and I don't like collateral damage against innocent bystanders,
+           that's all
+<@ulm> anything else for open floor?
+<@Whissi> Yes, I'd like to discuss my mail.
+<+Amynka> Recruitment process change
+* veremitz just compiling.
+<+mgorny> oh u
+* mgorny wants to go visit his kittens before it gets too dark          [22:15]
+<+Amynka> I believe we should drop quizzes and make it strictly contribution
+          based
+<@ulm> Whissi: by what you suggest there, you should submit it as an item for
+       the next meeting :p
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: that's how things are supposed to be actually, so there
+            really isn't a lot to discuss, we should just start following it.
+<veremitz> Amynka: erm What?!
+<@Whissi> It's an internal thing but let's dicuss Amynka first.
+<@ulm> Amynka: please hold on, let's discuss Whissi's item first
+<veremitz> or is that Amy-sarcarm :P
+<@Whissi> Now we have a loop.
+* dilfridge checks the Domina Trocken.
+<+Amynka> veremitz: deadly serious
+<@ulm> *sigh*                                                           [22:16]
+<+Amynka> ulm: ok
+<@ulm> Whissi: you go first
+<+Amynka> sorry
+<@Whissi> OK.
+<@Whissi> To summarize my mail: People who put something on the agenda must
+          add specific motions; Council will only vote on motions published
+          with agenda 1w before meeting; Council will NOT formulate *new*
+          motions during meeting (like motion "change foo=X to foo=Y" was
+          added to agenda, changing to to foo=Z based on discussion during
+          meeting is a no-go -- new motions must be on mailing list before)
+<+mgorny> Whissi: what about out-of-meeting votes?                      [22:17]
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: Like I said above, that is how it is supposed to be done,
+            so we should just start following it.
+<+mgorny> Whissi: and how do we prevent from things being stalled forever due
+          to council members voting 'no' because of last-minute ideas?
+<@WilliamH> mgorny: there was really no  criteria for when an out-of-meeting
+            vote could happen.
+<@ulm> Whissi: IMHO council is free to vote on any motion brought forward
+       during the meeting, as long as it's related to the agenda
+<@Whissi> mgorny: Example? Things like new QA lead approval don't have to be
+          an agenda item I think.
+<@dilfridge> "Council will NOT formulate *new* motions during meeting" makes
+             it *very* difficult to get anything done.
+<@dilfridge> So this is not a good idea.                                [22:18]
+<+mgorny> Whissi: i recall at least few of my ideas being approved after
+          adding minor change requests on meeting
+<@ulm> basically it would mean to delay decisions until next meeting, or to
+       have extra meetings
+<@dilfridge> at least we need the flexibility to adapt a motion to discussion
+             on the list and to discussion during council meeting
+<+mgorny> with your proposal, that would mean they would be rejected and i
+          would have to wait another month, and hopefully they wouldn't be
+          rejected then...
+<@WilliamH> I understand what you are talking about mgorny,  I'm not sure what
+            the answer is... maybe what you are talking about would work...
+                                                                        [22:19]
+<@Whissi> dilfridge: But it's not a good idea to say "Must discuss on meeting"
+          and someone interested in X believes his/her idea/motion was
+          accepted because nobody raised objections just to learn the day
+          after the meeting council voted on a different proposal than he/she
+          proposed. That's not good either.
+<@ulm> Whissi: the other part of it is fine, agenda items should be specific
+<@dilfridge> that is precisely why we usually ask the champions to be present
+                                                                        [22:20]
+<+mgorny> Whissi: the other idea would be to kill meetings entirely, and just
+          vote on mailing lists
+<@Whissi> And don't just think about the person proposing the first motion.
+          Also think about people not sharing their concerns because current
+          proposed motion is fine for them. But when we are going to change
+          during meeting and the one who proposed it is fine with that other
+          can still disagree...
+<@WilliamH> We can't kill meetings without a full dev vote so that's a no-go
+<@ulm> mgorny: we can't do that because of the slackers rule
+<@dilfridge> well, we can do a 5min meeting "everyone here, let's do the rest
+             via bugs"                                                  [22:21]
+<@dilfridge> that fulfills requirements
+<+mgorny> + open floor
+<@xiaomiao> I like the idea, makes the meeting just a simple yes/no/abstain
+            vote without complex discussion and confusion
+<@WilliamH> ulm: the slacker rule isn't the issue, the glep requires us to
+            meet once a month.
+* Shentino is contacting trustees                                       [22:22]
+<+mgorny> in any case, this is something that needs to be discussed on ml
+<+mgorny> in depth
+<@ulm> anyway, we won't vote on it today
+<@Whissi> No. This is council workflow.
+<@Whissi> We already have to follow official rule and this is discussion must
+          be on ml before
+<veremitz> vote to discuss?!
+<veremitz> :D
+<@Whissi> So this is not really NEW
+<@ulm> Whissi: can we move on?
+<+mgorny> Whissi: if it prevents people from having their motion accepted,
+          people should have a right to express their opinion           [22:23]
+<@dilfridge> we need to make sure that bureaucracy doesnt get too much into
+             the way of getting things done
+<+mgorny> it's silly when you say you want to change X because people don't
+          give a chance to give their opinion, and then don't give their
+          chance to give their opinion on this change
+<@ulm> ok, let's move on                                                [22:24]
+<@ulm> Amynka: you have the floor
+<+Amynka> as I said I believe quizzes should be entirely dropped from the
+          recruitment process since they bring 0 value to gentoo.. and we
+          should focus more to contributions of the developers
+<+Amynka> of course some mandatory review and talk with the person will be
+          placed                                                        [22:25]
+<+Amynka> s/developers/contributors
+<+mgorny> quizzes still have some educational value; do you have an idea how
+          to reuse that?
+<+Amynka> mgorny: they dont
+<+Amynka> people dont remember anything
+<+Amynka> mostly
+<@gyakovlev> just fyi, the new merged completed quiz from a recruit was almost
+             3000 lines of text.                                        [22:26]
+<+Amynka> mgorny: we will of course use questions in the review
+<veremitz> that is onerous ..
+<veremitz> for both sides.
+<+Amynka> but filling up some quizz is just complete waste of time
+<+mgorny> i mean, the questions target specific problems, so i think it would
+          make sense to convert them into at least 'please read these things'
+<+mgorny> Amynka: for that, i agree
+<+mgorny> and i don't think most of the people in this room would have done
+          them again if they had too                                    [22:27]
+<@WilliamH> Amynka: I don't see a problem with it as long as the interview
+            process includes questions about things that were in the quizzes.
+<@WilliamH> Amynka: like the council etc.
+<+Amynka> WilliamH: that of course is mandatory
+<+Amynka> some general knowledge have to be verified of course          [22:28]
+<@WilliamH> I don't think the council set the recruitment process right?
+<+Amynka> No but this is very big change
+<+Amynka> and we do not have agreement with zlogene
+<@WilliamH> So, technically Amynka, I think your team can change it.    [22:29]
+<+Amynka> well I am not in the team anymore
+<+mgorny> though i think you ought to discuss that on mls
+<+mgorny> council deciding on it is kinda gray area
+<+mgorny> since it effectively means council deciding on who can vote for
+          council
+<+zlogene> Amynka: we have not discussed it seriously
+<+Amynka> mgorny: i think the amount of flamewar that would bring is not worth
+          it
+<@WilliamH> Yeah, council shouldn't decide that, good point mgorny.
+<+Amynka> who should then?                                              [22:30]
+<@dilfridge> but who should then?
+<@ulm> might be a subject for -core
+<@Whissi> The person who want to the such a motion pass. :)
+<+mgorny> if you want it really formal, probably whole dev vote
+<@Whissi> *see
+<+mgorny> if you don't want it that formal, internal recruiters decision
+<@WilliamH> dilfridge: Hmm, I think we should be able to trust the recruiters.
+<@dilfridge> besides, it's not deciding about "xxx will become developer" but
+             deciding about general procedure
+<@dilfridge> works for me
+<+Amynka> which bring us to another point
+<+Amynka> you have one recruiter.. what are you going to do about it?   [22:31]
+<@gyakovlev> WilliamH: recruiter(s) is a single person now
+<@ulm> mgorny: was the current recruiters' policy decided by an all-devs vote?
+<@dilfridge> !expn recruiters
+<+willikins> dilfridge: recruiters = amynka,zlogene,
+<@Whissi> Amynka: I'll probably join the project next month.
+<@dilfridge> !proj recruiters
+<+willikins> dilfridge: (recruiters@gentoo.org) zlogene
+<+Amynka> Whissi: you cannot
+<+mgorny> ulm: doubt it
+<+Amynka> Whissi: training of recruiter takes 6 months
+<+mgorny> it probably grew out of historical procedures
+<+Amynka> zlogene: am i right?
+<@ulm> mgorny: might even go back to managers times                     [22:32]
+<+zlogene> Amynka: 6 months or longer, you are right
+<+mgorny> indeed, quizzes are very old
+<@dilfridge> ok so just for clarification: Amynka you first left the team and
+             now want the council to reorganize team procedures?
+<@Whissi> Show me that policy please... but anyway, at some point this process
+          has to be started.
+<+Amynka> dilfridge: maybe, I can always come back if I see that we are all
+          nice people and stuff :D                                      [22:33]
+<+zlogene> to clarify, I have never insisted Amynka left the team, I always
+           welcome contrubutions from her
+<+Amynka> dilfridge: i wanted to show that the current situation is not
+          feasible
+<+Amynka> if something happens to me or zlogene
+<@dilfridge> So.
+<+Amynka> what are you going to do?
+<@ulm> so who would train new recruiters if zlogene gets hit by a bus?[22:34]
+<+Amynka> seems that council doesnt care till its too late :)
+<@dilfridge> I think both of you should immediately start training two new
+             recruiter candidates.
+<+Amynka> exactly
+<+Amynka> dilfridge: oh we did.. except they gave up
+<+mgorny> didn't last trained recruiters turned out completely useless?
+<+Amynka> zlogene: right? :D
+<+zlogene> dilfridge: bad news\
+<@dilfridge> Yes I heard about that.
+<+zlogene> 4 will not fly
+<+Amynka> zlogene: 4 out of 4
+<@WilliamH> I've wondered about the value of the quizzes also.  I know we have
+            proxied maintainers who have been in that project for years
+            because they don't want to mess with the quizzes.
+<+mgorny> let's disband recruiters and accept new people via proxy-maint
+                                                                        [22:35]
+<+Amynka> mgorny: not bad idea
+<+zlogene> long story short: there are always only 2 active recruiters
+* mgorny hides
+<Shentino> you're biased mgorny, you're the pmaint head
+<@dilfridge> Shentino: shuddup
+<+Amynka> i think it might be wort thinking about setting up some process
+<+zlogene> in short, gentelmen and lady
+<+Amynka> which would not rely on two people
+<@WilliamH> dilfridge: :p
+<+zlogene> I propose I discuss the changes wuth Amynka first
+<+zlogene> we always find a consensus first                             [22:36]
+<+mgorny> wanna hear how recuiting in netbsd works?
+<@dilfridge> so in the past we had recruiters too, maybe we could ask them for
+             advice?
+<@dilfridge> jmbsvicetto: ^
+<+mgorny> they have some interesting things we could steal
+<+Amynka> either way.. its something to consider.. could I have council vote
+          on what they think about abadoning the quizzes?
+<+Amynka> not decion one
+<+Amynka> i am curious about if people agree or not
+<@ulm> Amynka: no vote in open floor, sorry
+<+Amynka> so no opinions?
+<veremitz> show of hands?
+<@WilliamH> Well, I'm not sure there's a need for a vote since the council
+            didn't institute the quizzes to start with.
+<@gyakovlev> mgorny: they get tried of your patches and give you commit bit?
+             that's how openbsd works afaik.
+<veremitz> non-binding
+<+Amynka> fingers? :D
+<@Whissi> To be honest, you haven't shown me enough reasons why I would say
+          "quizzes are bad" yet.
+<@ulm> yes, we could do a straw poll                                    [22:37]
+<+Amynka> Whissi: and you want to join recruiters?
+* dilfridge polls a straw
+<@Whissi> I still believe in quizzes for the moment.
+<@Whissi> Amynka: Yes
+<+Amynka> Whissi: they are not bad.. they are useless?
+<+Amynka> tell me one usefull thing about them
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: see my comment above wrt quizzes
+<+mgorny> gyakovlev: nah, they actually have people process your request but
+          they also have some interesting things                        [22:38]
+<@ulm> Amynka: they may be more objective than an interview
+<@ulm> like written vs oral exam
+<@WilliamH> Whissi: I know off some proxied maintainers who have been so for
+            years because they don't want to mess with them.
+<+mgorny> for example, before a new dev is accepted, an rfc is sent to ask if
+          anyone is opposed to that
+<+Amynka> ulm: not true
+<+Amynka> i can still reject anyone
+<+Amynka> if i have bad mood
+<+Amynka> in theory
+<+Amynka> even with perfect quizzes
+<+Amynka> you got me that power
+* veremitz stifles a cough.
+<+mgorny> WilliamH: i also know proxied maintainers who were along for long
+          and i also know that they can't become devs because they're too
+          careless
+<@ulm> you shouldn't base decisions on your mood :/
+<+Amynka> i agree                                                       [22:39]
+<+Amynka> and I dont
+<+Amynka> i am just saying nothing is objective at this point
+<@WilliamH> mgorny: that's true.
+<+Amynka> you have to pick objective people
+<+Amynka> the process never will be objective enough
+<@Whissi> Amynka: The quizzes will demonstrate knowledge. Because everyone has
+          to do them, everyone at one time demonstrated same knowledge. If you
+          do it via interview and don't follow same process....
+<+Amynka> Whissi: its not true
+<@ulm> well, I see it mostly as written vs oral exam, so not fundamentally
+       different
+<+Amynka> i passed quizzes and my knowledge was almost 0
+<+mgorny> Whissi: except people who joined before had easier quizzes
+<veremitz> people are prone to forget the knowledge ..                  [22:40]
+<Shentino> we also require new devs to be mentored, and to some exten tthe
+           mentor is on the hook for the mentee's foulups
+<+mgorny> so 'everyone has to do them' is not really exactly true
+<veremitz> Shentino: fair point
+<Shentino> in essence new devs start out as probationary devs
+<+Amynka> Whissi: plus from neuroscience point of view its short term memory..
+          which means in 3 weeks you have no clue
+<+zlogene> mentors is another pain of gentoo
+<@WilliamH> The mentoring is fine, I think we should still do that.
+<Shentino> I would like mentors to be let off the hook to some extent cuz
+           otherwise they could be gun shy about onboarding a noob
+<+zlogene> Amynka and I saw totally careless mentors
+<@dilfridge> do we still mentor?
+<veremitz> dilfridge: I should hope so!                                 [22:41]
+<@WilliamH> dilfridge: yes afaik we do. :)
+<Shentino> dill: I would guess so, if it's still a formal part of the
+           recruiting process
+<+Amynka> dilfridge: kinda
+<+mgorny> dilfridge: technically yes but we fail to enforce responsibility on
+          mentors
+<@WilliamH> zlogene: Amynka: If a mentor is careless, I would think that
+            person shouldn't be a mentor again for a while?
+<+mgorny> Whissi: that's actually a nice idea                           [22:42]
+<+zlogene> WilliamH: I tried to rise that time ago, but have not found support
+           with jlec in the past
+<+Amynka> WilliamH: agreed but if the person has contributions and knowledge..
+          and these contributions can be reviewed by various people mentor is
+          not such a critical point
+<+Amynka> meaning
+<+Amynka> if people are trained by the work
+<+Amynka> they dont need mentors thatm uch
+<@WilliamH> How do other distros bring in new devs?                     [22:43]
+<veremitz> zlogene: is jlec still aruond even?
+<+zlogene> gyakovlev: gonna pivk up yours tommorrow once home ;)
+<+Amynka> WilliamH: i think its mostly contribution based too
+<+Amynka> like opensuse
+<@Whissi> Well, how many people start becoming a dev without contributing
+          first? You say that in a way like they start becoming dev out of the
+          nowhere...
+<+zlogene> veremitz: no, this was like five years ago
+<veremitz> zlogene: ah!
+<+zlogene> the main problem with quizzzes is that really skilled people write
+           them reluctantly                                             [22:44]
+<+zlogene> and bad skilled people try to cite the devmanual
+<@Whissi> Someone who already contribute should be able to do quizzes without
+          many problems... is that not what you are experiencing?
+<+zlogene> literally
+<@WilliamH> This is definitely not something we are going to decide today, but
+            I"m not opposed to changing the recruitment process.
+<+mgorny> quizzes worked for me when i was a student
+<+mgorny> today i wouldn't find time for them                           [22:45]
+<@WilliamH> We do not control the process specifically at the council level.
+<+mgorny> today i don't find time for such prolonged meetings!
+<+zlogene> WilliamH: well, and honestly council is not about to control
+           recruiters, so everything is right :)
+<+mgorny> Amynka: i'd say if you need council to do something, go with a
+          motion                                                        [22:46]
+<@Whissi> ulm: Let's move on.
+<+mgorny> if you don't, just do your thing
+<+zlogene> only in case of appeals
+<+mgorny> if recruiters break gentoo, council will complain
+<@ulm> Amynka: zlogene: can you discuss it, and maybe bring it up on mailing
+       lists?
+<+mgorny> if things continue working, i don't think there will be a reason for
+          council to complain
+<+zlogene> ulm: we will I hope
+<@WilliamH> mgorny++
+<@ulm> any other item for open floor?                                   [22:47]
+<@dilfridge> oh somebody always complains
+<@WilliamH> zlogene: Amynka: recruitment is your process. :-)
+* mgorny notes he had kinda adopted 3 stray kittens
+<@dilfridge> and get your shit together please.
+<+mgorny> that for open floor summary
+<@ulm> I don't see anything else
+<@dilfridge> no                                                         [22:48]
+<@ulm> next meeting will be on 2019-08-11
+<+zlogene> dilfridge: what a rude sentense, but ok :p
+<@ulm> slyfox: you'll have the chair
+<@slyfox> *nod*
+<@ulm> meeting closed
+<@slyfox> \o/ thanks all!
+* ulm bangs the virtual gavel
+<+mgorny> thanks and good night
+<@Whissi> Thanks for chairing.
+*** ulm (~ulm@gentoo/developer/ulm) has set the topic for #gentoo-council:
+    "191st meeting: 2019-08-11 19:00 UTC |
+    https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20190811T19 |
+    https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Council |
+    https://dev.gentoo.org/~dilfridge/decisions.html"
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